WRITERSoftheFUTURE.com

BrennanHarvey · Guest

I recently attended a Southern California Writers Association meeting where the speaker, Dave Cunningham, spoke about "The Nuts and Bolts of Good Writing." Something he said reminded me of something that was said here.

Brad R. Torgersen · Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:29 pm Post subject:

When I look at a lot of my early stories, I see loads of action taking place, but not much in the way of authentic characterization. I also see too many infodumps and too many stories that are "first chapter" stories; ergo, they just get started, when they end.

This is on top of the usual beginners' stuff: honing grammar, eliminating bad habits, etc.

Which is not to say I've 'made it' yet! Whooboy no way. Talk to me again in ten more years. But at least I've gotten to the point that WOTF and Baen's consider me "entry" professional level.

I imagine the next million words will be spent getting from "entry" to "working" professional level.
_________________
Winner, WOTF vol. XXVI & Analog SF author.
My web site. My writer blog.

Alastair · Joined: 03 Dec 2008 Posts: 556 Location: Colorado

Building craft is a big part of it, of course. You're also reprogramming your brain into a more writerly mode (although you could argue that that's part of craft).

One thing I noticed doing NaNoWriMo is that the ideas and the "good stuff" comes easier once you've got the crud out of the way, even writing each day. I likened it to a squeeze bottle of mustard -- you've got to get the dried-up crud out before the good stuff will flow. So if I didn't already have a next scene in mind for the day's writing, I'd just start writing anything (some of it pretty bad, or silly, or otherwise unusable) to get that out of the way and pretty soon the good stuff (well, better stuff, anyway) would start flowing.

Some of that dried crud is the autobiographical stuff mentioned above, some of it may be unoriginal ideas or hackneyed phrasing.

I've been participating in online forums for 25 years. Pournelle and others have said that you need to write fiction for it to count towards the "million words of crap" that beginning writers need to get out of their system, so all those posts may not count to that, but I'm sure some of it counts toward purging the autobiographical stuff.

Somebody else (Orson Scott Card?) said that some beginning writers might have bursts of 10,000 or even 100,000 words of good stuff mixed in with the crud in that first million, but others have to go the full million.
_________________
-- Alastair

EmeryH · Joined: 14 Jun 2008 Posts: 484

What is meant by autobiographical? Isn't all writing based on the writer's own perspective on life?

Prisoner · Joined: 06 Feb 2008 Posts: 476 Location: Metro Boston

I sold the first story I ever submitted. Not before it got a half-dozen rejects, but it was still sold. What does that make me?

Beginner's luck? Since then I've gone backward. No, not entirely. Just trying for tougher markets.

I think the first writing being used to get the self-indulgence out of your system is fine, but the adage applies to younger people, I think. I'm not going to automatically pre-reject every early inspiration I have just because Orson Scott Card said it is too early to be good. Writing is highly individualistic.

Walt Whitman had only one book, essentially. He kept appending and revising Leaves of Grass until his deathbed. Guess he's no good, eh?

I'm an anomaly. Starting in my 50s as a lark, yeah, I'm a confirmed wierdo. Lovin' it though.

To thine own self be true.

Prisoner
_________________

4xHM

JRTomlin · Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Posts: 1048 Location: Portland, Oregon

I'm not sure about the million word thing. I think it's often true. On the other hand, I also sold the first short story I ever wrote outside of a classroom (and I don't consider those to count).

I'm probably at the half million mark for fiction. Way above that for non-fiction. But I'm not sure that serious, crafted non-fiction shouldn't count.

And I'm not sure part of that million isn't just pestering agents and editors until they decide you're not going to go away, so they go ahead and take you on. That is only partially kidding, too.

My first stories weren't particularly autobiographical. They were really short on characterization though. I thought description was for sissies. Guess it just depends on what the individual needs to learn.
_________________
J. R. Tomlin

www.jeannetomlin.com

Talon of the Raptor Clan
Available at Amazon.com

Prisoner · Joined: 06 Feb 2008 Posts: 476 Location: Metro Boston

Alastair · Joined: 03 Dec 2008 Posts: 556 Location: Colorado

JRTomlin · Joined: 25 Feb 2008 Posts: 1048 Location: Portland, Oregon

There's a rather old joke. Bill Coors of Coors Beer, August Busch of Budweiser, and Shaun Holliday of Guinness were in Dublin for the big beer convention. Afterward they met at a pub for a drink. The barman asked what they wanted.

Coors said, "A Coors."

Busch said, "I'll have a Bud."

Holliday said, "I'll have a Coke."

"What? You're not having a beer?" the other men exclaimed.

"Well, if you're not having beer, then I'm won't," he replied.

Laughing

_________________
J. R. Tomlin

www.jeannetomlin.com

Talon of the Raptor Clan
Available at Amazon.com

Prisoner · Joined: 06 Feb 2008 Posts: 476 Location: Metro Boston

At risk of thread drift, I can't resist some elaboration on this effect. I'll have to disclose to you that I have an MBA with a marketing concentration, but try to view me as a human being.

Beer, aspirin-based headache remedies and very few other consumer items were of particular interest to market researchers, because they are marketing creations. In blind taste tests people cannot distinguish among the major lagers. Most think they can, but that is marketing hypnosis.

We did it ourselves with other students. We poured it in the kitchen, everyone tasted and rated. Then we poured a local product against a national brand in front of them so they could see the labels, and people believed the label over their taste buds, even though at the time they remarked that they were on to us and our little game. The statistics were very clear. Big Jump, low R-squared.

In the book about not getting your manuscript rejected, The First Five Pages remarked that a tester sent a MSS through with the author's name changed that had won the national book award years ago. It got form rejects everywhere.

I know of no other way to make it in Asimov's, F&SF, etc., than to submit often. A WOTF win wouldn't hurt either.

Prisoner
_________________

4xHM

BrennanHarvey · Guest

BrennanHarvey · Guest

BrennanHarvey · Guest

AMcCarter · Joined: 06 Oct 2008 Posts: 765 Location: Tulsa, OK

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The plan is to submit to so many magazines so many times that they actually give my manuscript more than a glance over or they get so tired of seeing my name they give me a pity publish. Either way, I think it's a win.
_________________
Amanda McCarter
My Blog

Prisoner · Joined: 06 Feb 2008 Posts: 476 Location: Metro Boston

I read somewhere that they time slushers. If they can't process an envelope in two minutes they aren't hired. So, they probably read the first sentence and skim a page, maybe two if you're lucky.

For all we know, Gordon calls down to the bilge and says purge the slush without reading it, since he has known authors lined up for the next six months and he already likes two slush stories. If you're in that pile you have 0 chance. If you submit in six months, your chances are better.