WRITERSoftheFUTURE.com

[Zaragon]

Thanks for the great answers to all of my questions, and I appreciated several others, too. They will make quite a bit of difference to my writing.

I’m not sure I remembered everything, but it’s a bit late here--four in the morning as Steven said--so I’m not going to fumble around in my memory right now.

I think I’ll call it a night, leave reading the rest and contemplating it all for tomorrow.

Good night.

[TimPowers]

Hello, people --

I'm afraid this is going to be my last post! -- for tonight anyway.

Lou, I think a story entirely in dialogue would get irritating, yes! I remember the old Fletch novels wree that way, and it was an interesting novelty, but ... throw in some narration too!

David, the only thing you need for the workshop is a computer. You don't need to bring any work-in-progress, since we'll set you to work on something new.

megstout, I love historical settings and characters for speculative fiction! Our sort of story has to get over the potential "Oh I'm so sure" reaction from readers, and it's a big credulity-help to be talking about real places and people!

Anyway, if I've missed any posts while I'm writing this, I'll catch 'em over the weekend! It's been great talking to you all!

Cheers,
Tim

[David P. Whittaker]

Thanks very much for the time! Great session.

[SoniaHelbig]

Hi Tim,

Thanks for being here!

I'd like to what point of views editors prefer reading?

I hear some editors hate first person and won't buy anything in it.

I'm also interested in whether a story would be knocked back from WotF because the third person limited pov wasn't tight enough?

Cheers,

Sonia Helbig (Timms)

(an over-the-moon Q4 finalist!!!!)

[administrator]

Thank you so much, Tim.

I have been reading along and I am not a writer, just an avid fiction reader, but after all this incredible advice I feel like sitting down myself to write an outline and to develop a story!

It's been great having a wonderful writer and teacher such as you, Tim, at this forum. Not too long ago I read "Three Days to Never" which I thoroughly enjoyed.

Thank you all for coming and joining us for this discussion tonight.

Peter

[TimPowers]

Hello, Sonia!

Well I've heard that too, that some editors hate first-person stories. I have a hard time believing it, given the examples of John D. MacDonald and Raymond Chandler and a lot of Heinlein -- not to mention Mark Twain! I like first-person stories just fine, and I think I'm a pretty typical reader. I'd say ... do it if it looks like the best way to tell the story. That "They hate first person" sounds to me like one of those hindering platitudes people always tell you to discourage you. (Like "Cant get an agent without a contract & can't get a contract without an agent.")

And you ask, "I'm also interested in whether a story would be knocked back from WotF because the third person limited pov wasn't tight enough?"

I can't speak for the other judges, but I do get jolted out of a story when the narration gives me the viewpoint of more than one character in a scene, without a skipped space to let me know we've changed cameras! You can jump from one viewpoint, one set of thougths, to another all you like, but skip a space in between so I know there's been a shift!

[SoniaHelbig]

Hi Tim,

Thanks for your reply, especially after the forum closed.

Sonia

[jloonam]

I think there's a misconception about what a copyright is. First every written work of intellectual property in a fixed, tangilble, published form is automatically protected under copyright law. What you're all talking about is copyright registration. The publisher often does the registration. SEE the copyright site for more details.

Did you know that it is, in fact, against the law not to register a published work for copyright within four months of first publication. The law isn't enforced in any meaningful way. But if you need to go into litigation, that little tidbit could impede legal action. "If registration occurs within 5 years of publication, it is considered prima facie evidence in a court of law."

As to the so-called poor man's copyright "The practice of sending a copy of your own work to yourself is sometimes called a “poor man’s copyright.” There is no provision in the copyright law regarding any such type of protection, and it is not a substitute for registration." In other words it's only value is circumstantial evidence of ownership of intellectual property.

[Zaragon]

Will you be stopping by again, Tim? Maybe give us a lesson sometime? For instance a step by step account of how you would have written a story to win the contest (you might have covered most of that in your answers--I can’t tell--or there might be something like it elsewhere, but if so I haven’t found it).

I think it would be very helpful to have a sort of checklist/manual, with an outline of the essentials. For all the good material out there on writing, there always seems to be pieces that haven’t stuck yet, or that have been distorted since I read them.

[TimPowers]

Hello, jlooman!

Right, the publisher does the registration, and even if the publisher somehow neglects to, the work is automatically protected anyhow.

And as I was telling Herbert, editors want to make maximum money from your story or novel! That is, they want raises and promotions, and they get those by consistently finding great stories among the slushpile. They simply don't ever steal a story or novel.

But if you like to worry, and don't we all, the "poor man's copyright" is a comforting gesture, like knocking wood.

[TimPowers]

Hello, Simon!

Well, I'd write a story for the contest in the same way I'd write a story for any market -- that is, I'd think up a good character, or else I'd think up a good problem for a character to have, or else I'd think up a good situation in which a character might have an intriguing problem. And then, whichever of those three things I thought up first -- the character, the problem, or the situation -- I'd think up the other two.

One thing I find helpful is to do all my thinking into the keyboard -- so I write stuff like, "Okay, Powers, so he's covered with tattoos -- do they change? Or is he maybe blind and doesn't know what they are? Or maybe he doesn't have any tattoos at all, but thinks he does? What if it's his mother that's got all the tattoos?" If you do all your thinking just in your head, you only remember the conclusion you come to, and the conclusion often turns out to be dumb -- but if you do it all into a notes file, you can page-up from the dumb conclusion and think, "My conclusion was no good, but I think I was onto something up here on page six, in this thought I didn't pursue."

Also, I ask myself a lot of questions in this notes file. Like, "Does ou rcharacter drink? Uh, no. Why not? Oh, I guess he doesn't like to be at all drunk. No, why _really?_" It's when I answer the "Why _really?_" question that I get some good depths to a character. ("Is he married? Yes. Why? I guess he fell in love with her. No, why _really?_")

And when I get to a point where a plot could go one way or another, I'll talk to myself (into the keyboard!) about the choice. Like, "If he DOES go to meet her, you could have these following several things happen, with these consequent advantages [followed by a list of things and advantages]; and if he DOES NOT go to meet her, here are the possible results and implications [followed by a list of results & implications]." I make the two lists pretty thorough, and then I read them both and decide which of the two I like best, and go with that. I want, impossibly, to have considered every possible plot arrangement before I commit to one!

(Also, just for luck, I always ask myself, "What did he used to be very good at but is determined not to do anymore? Who did he used to be very close to but can't ever see again?" Often these lead to something good, just because it'll be interesting to see _why_ he has this never-again resolution, and we know that in the story he _will_ do it again, or see that person again.)

Anyway, more to your question, I'd make sure the story centrally involves the SF or fantasy element and wouldn't function just as well without it. I'd take my characters and their problems seriously, not hide behind an ironic or tongue-in-cheek tone. I'd remember Poul Anderson's advice, to give us at least three of the five senses in every scene. I'd look for scenes that could be omitted without compromising the plot, and omit them. And I'd have the hinge of the story be some terribly costly choice the protagonist gets faced with.

[jloonam]

Zaragon,

I don't know about anybody else's; my basic checklist focuses on story fundamentals.

Plot/Conflict/Dramatic premise
Character/Characterization
Setting: time, place, situation
Dialogue/Discourse
Exposition/Scene
Rhetorical style: schemes and tropes
Theme
Tone: attitudes of the story and the individual characters
Resonance
Style: mechanics of grammar, spelling, punctuation

[Zaragon]

Thanks!

The bit about thinking into the keyboard is definitely something I should try, I can't believe I haven't thought to do that.

Since my thoughts are almost always wordless until I'm writing or reading, I suspect that technique would do me a whole lot of good--transferring wordless thought, emotion, atmosphere and images into a story directly might be what is making my writing so awfully slow.


jloonam, I wasn’t really thinking of it that way, my own includes things like:

“Does it have three or more interesting basic factors?” (I guess this is subjective; many good short stories/novelettes have only one or two, the way I measure it, but I like at least three)

“Are the relevant characters people to care one way or another about?” is another.

And I’ve added quite a few things from Tim’s answers here.